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year1997

註冊時間: 2008-04-26
文章: 2

發表於: 星期五三月 13, 2009 5:28 pm 文章主題:

Hi vodkangump, I'm looking for a E61 espresso machine too. Especially with good exchange rate now. For reading quite a lot of user reviews, I think I will get a Isomac Tea. Just for sharing (pls delete if violating forum rules): Since HK do not have a distributor, I have checked some online stores and ask for discount: 1) http://www.fivesensescoffee.com.au/ Best price with Mazzer Mini. It have a package with RB tamper too. But slow response to email. I sent 3 emails and get 1 answer only. No discount can be offered. 2) http://coffeeparts.com.au/ Avg price. Avg customer service but no reply when I ask for discount. Cheapest on delivery charge. 3) http://www.espressocoffeeshop.com/ An Italian company. Avg price. Super fast response on email. Easy to get discount. 4) http://www.coffeeitalia.co.uk/ Best price on Isomac Tea. fast response on email.

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vodkangump

註冊時間: 2008-05-14
文章: 287

發表於: 星期六三月 14, 2009 2:13 am 文章主題: Re: ??!?upgrade

LittleCup 寫到:

vodkangump 寫到:

Dear LittleCup CHing,

Thanks for your detailed evaluation Very Happy

. I think hot water wand is not essential to me, since if I want water-based coffee, I tend to use drip method or french press. Regarding your last sentence, are you saying the temperature stability of Isomac is inferior?

I wouldn't say Ismac is inferior but this is a general issue regarding to the difference between an HX machine and a dual-boiler machine.

For HX machine, you can get quite stable temperature *during* the brewing process, but you may get different temperatures in *different* brews. E.g. in the morning you get a nice espresso at 90 degrees, and in the afternoon you want to make the same espresso again to show it to your friends but you find the temperature to be 93 degrees! So that means it is not easy for you to *reproduce* the great shots you made earlier.

A skillful barista can handle the HX machine by pulling empty shots of hot water. The barista times the idle time of the machine and apply the proper amount of water shots for cooling/heating (depending on the machine). But still this requires time, and you may not be able to afford this time in the morning at home before going to work!

A dual-boiler machine tackles the problem differently. By separating the boilers between brewing and steaming, a constant and consistent brewing temperature can be easily maintained. Coffee machine manufacturers such as La Mazxxx and Epobxx use PID for futher fine tune and control the temperature stability for brewing, resulting in very accurate brewing temperature not only during brewing, but also between brews. So it's relatively easy to get several shots of great espressos in a row, in the morning, in the afternoon, and any other time you like.

So the bottom line is: if you intend to use an HX machine, be prepared to spend more time and effort to control the temperature before the shots, although you can still brew and steam at the same time. If you find this practice ok and not too inconvenient to you, a HX machine is certainly your target machine.

Great explanation. I can afford the time for controlling HX machine as I make espresso usually in the weekend. But I worry whether I am capable to control the temperature manually. As you have mentioned, "The barista times the idle time of the machine and apply the proper amount of water shots for cooling/heating", which implied that it still needs high experience. Anyways the roughly ranking:

HX machine < Dual boiler machine < Dual boiler + PID machine

Maybe I should do some benefit-cost analysis. Some other practical questions:
1/ the warm-up time of those machines (The Gaggia Baby is very fast which is its strength (but also its weakness))
2/ the water infill requirement (as i cannot modify the pipework so I must fill water manually )

Thanks

vodkangump 在星期六三月 14, 2009 2:49 am 作了第 1 次修改

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vodkangump

註冊時間: 2008-05-14
文章: 287

發表於: 星期六三月 14, 2009 2:13 am 文章主題:

vittorio 寫到:

If you are interested in double boiler equipment, you may also check this out. It is for your research purpose only.

http://www.dallacorte.com/index.php?article_id=143&clang=1

http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/bellabarista_detail.asp?ProductID=318
You can download the ""Closer Look"document for reference.

then you can compare both HX and double boiler.

Thanks a lot.

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vodkangump

註冊時間: 2008-05-14
文章: 287

發表於: 星期六三月 14, 2009 2:19 am 文章主題:

year1997 寫到:

Hi vodkangump,

I'm looking for a E61 espresso machine too. Especially with good exchange rate now. For reading quite a lot of user reviews, I think I will get a Isomac Tea.

Just for sharing (pls delete if violating forum rules):
Since HK do not have a distributor, I have checked some online stores and ask for discount:

1) http://www.fivesensescoffee.com.au/
Best price with Mazzer Mini. It have a package with RB tamper too.
But slow response to email. I sent 3 emails and get 1 answer only. No discount can be offered.

2) http://coffeeparts.com.au/
Avg price. Avg customer service but no reply when I ask for discount.
Cheapest on delivery charge.

3) http://www.espressocoffeeshop.com/
An Italian company. Avg price. Super fast response on email. Easy to get discount.

4) http://www.coffeeitalia.co.uk/
Best price on Isomac Tea. fast response on email.

Thanks for your information. Could you explain why you selected TEA, as compared with Expobar Leva 1 or other brands in the same rank?

I also checked out that a HK agent (JXXX JAVA) has ever imported TEA, but I am not sure if they still the agent now.

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vittorio

註冊時間: 2009-03-12
文章: 6

發表於: 星期六三月 14, 2009 7:54 am 文章主題:

vodkangump 寫到:

vittorio 寫到:

Thanks a lot.

If you are really interested in TEA, you can call this number, 2345 7059, for further information.

For the expobar, of course you can contact Freshcoffee.

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Soso

註冊時間: 2008-08-04
文章: 18

發表於: 星期一三月 23, 2009 11:04 am 文章主題: Re: ??!?upgrade

LittleCup 寫到:

vodkangump 寫到:

LittleCup 寫到:

vodkangump 寫到:

??Gaggia Baby??, ???upgrade (but not urgent), budget around Hk$5000-8000. ??C Hing ??suggestion?

What sort of enhancements over Gaggia Baby would you like to get for the upgrade?

C Hing, This is a good question. I think I look for an espresso machine (semi-auto definitely) which is more consistent and tolerant than Gaggia Baby, and has more user friendly milk frothing facility, reasonably durable; and with appropriate size suit HK living space.

I feel that sometimes Baby produce two espresso sequentially (of same grains size) of different appearances and tastes. As the boiler is small, the boiling indicator keep on and off frequently, even while pulling the espresso. The pressure appears inconsistent since the sound of the pump varies time to time. Of course, I know those variations also depend on the barista skill and a skilled one can master it well. But I am interested in bean roasting currently that I like to have an machine which can produce more accurate (e.g. constant temperature and pressure head) and consistent coffee for my roasting evaluation. A tolerant machine I meant is one which can compensate my variation due to poor brewing skill. Meanwhile my GF like to get better latte art, but the Baby steam nozzle is short (after avoid part of plastic tube) and rigid, it is not so friendly to use. Also I feel the small boiler imposes more variation during frothing. Finally if you are an Baby user, you would understand my desire on durability.

I hope some C Hing can share their experience in upgrading (or not upgrading), how the upgrade values for money, and which specification I need to focus on. My budget is set based on the 2-3 times of the Baby price and I hope this jump can have an observable improvement. Is there any chance to have a double-boiler one at this range? If higher price is required to fulfill the needs, please advise. But I am not a kind of perfectionist that pursuing a top-end model. Value for money is important. Of course I will do my own research, but before that I wish to collect the opinions so that I can more focus.

Thanks all.

From what you described, you would need a machine which provides:

1. Constant temperature for brewing
2. Constant pressure
3. Good milk forthing capability

Ranxxx S may provide you 2 and 3, but it seems that 1 is lacking.

In general a good E61 machine with heat exchange can provide 1, 2, and 3. But it's not very convenient because you need to do quite frequent water flushing for controlling the temperature.

A double-boiler machine seems to fit your needs, but the pricing may be outside your range.

I'm using the new Expobar Office Leva 2 (a dual-boiler machine, very similar to Expobar Brewtus III in USA). I like the following features it provides:

1. Constant temperature for brewing
2. Constant pressure
3. Good milk forthing capability
4. Adjustable brewing temperature (for trying out different beans)
5. Adjustable brewing pressure (for getting different month-feel of the espresso)

With this machine I don't have to worry about the temperature fluctuations which lead to inconsistent tasting for different cups. Indeed I can concentrate on the beans grinding and beans selection issues. It's a good machine and I'm very happy with it. For some beans I use 90 degrees for espresso and for others I use 92 degrees. You can tell the taste difference immediately when a different temperature is selected. Now I can try out many different beans and get the best taste out of them!

I guess this machine should fit your needs, but in terms of pricing it seems that it is slightly outside your current budget. Just my little bit of sharing.

My 2 cents.....

I believe that any E-61 group head machines regardless of it being a heat exchange (HX) or double boiler all have the same problem of the brew head getting over heated if you let it sit and do nothing for a long time.
(due to the preinfusion mechanism of the group head.)

But the great thing about them is that the more you use them, or the more water you let out, the more stable the water temperature gets. So as long as you flush it enough, water temperature is not a problem.

Alot of commercial machines use HX, not double boiler, e.g. Wega, and La Cimbali. And they are perfectly good commercial machines that produces great espressos day in and day out.
You have to flush water out of these machines too, if you've let them sit for a while. It's not that inconvenient. It will become a habit.

Although Isomacs do not have a water temperature adjustment in front of the machine, if you open it up, they have an adjustment inside.
(Do not attempt this is you a a mechanics dummy like myself)

check coffeegeeks.com they have great reviews of machines, and lets you know why it's great and why it sux.

Small boilers can not retain enough heat, therefore temperature drops as you pull shots, hence taste different. (e.g. 450mL boilers)
800mL boilers and above would be alot more stable.

REMEMBER: Grinder is more important than the machine itself. If you don't have a great one already allow more $$ for a grinder that will partner well with your machine.

Generally when you get to the $8000 range, all those machines will last for at least 10 years no problems. I have an Isomac Millenium at home, and it is the 3rd year already, still running strong. (as long as you clean and back flush properly).

Good luck on your search. You are moving towards the right direction already, because you are doing the research and asking questions and not just buying blindly.

Lastly for your roasting evaluation, you should really do cupping to taste the coffee, or use a plunger, as it has as little variable on the end result as possible. the only variables really are, water temp, amount of coffee, and brewing time ..etc... It's alot easier to control.

Espresso form is too easily affect by factors other than your roasting technique, it has too many variables. e.g. Room temperature, room humidity, grind, tamp pressure, dosing level, water temperature, machine pressure ... so on and so on.

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